[IAEP] is this useful feedback?

[David Farning]

A few week ago I got a change to talk to Andrew Harrington of python fame.  He has developed an interesting introductory computer course[1] that would be interesting to modify for use as intro to sugar course.
david 
 
1. http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh/python/hands-on/ 

On  10/13/2008, 17:50, Bill Kerr (billkerr at gmail.com) wrote:On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Bill Kerr  wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Tomeu Vizoso  wrote:
  On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Bill Kerr  wrote:
 > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Tomeu Vizoso  wrote:
 >>
 >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Bill Kerr  wrote:
 >> > http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI
 >> >
 >> > is this useful feedback?
 >>
 >> I think it's useful in itself, but there needs to happen quite a bit
 >> of work before it can be consumed by developers. I guess someone that
 >> knows the context in which those comments are made could translate
 >> them to more universally understandable statements, and then someone
 >> else could aggregate those with other feedback and produce some
 >> summary from all of that.
 >>
 >> > flux, year 10 student australia, has been slack in recording his
 >> > criticisms
 >> > (tends to mouth off with a negative but informed tone) but I sat with
 >> > him
 >> > and wrote them down myself, insisting on a bit more detail - he's one of
 >> > two
 >> > students in the class who knows some linux (more than me) - he felt the
 >> > xo
 >> > was lacking compared with other linux distributions
 >> >
 >> > XO DISLIKES
 >> >
 >> > Slow to load initially
 >> > Loading (splash) screen for each activity is sad, dull, not worth it
 >> > Games done cheaply compared with GNOME and KDE games
 >> > mouse pointer is too big
 >> > wants ability to replace XO icon with different icons
 >> > wants ability to create a new background
 >> > want fluxbox, a better GUI
 >> >
 >> > btw I have asked the class to try to put themselves, at least some of
 >> > the
 >> > time, into the shoes of a 6-10 yo child from the developing world when
 >> > providing feedback - but have also said that I want to hear  negatives
 >> > as
 >> > well as positives
 >>
 >> I'm not sure that's the best POV for useful feedback. I cannot think
 >> myself of any features of Sugar that are specially targeted to people
 >> in developing countries and I for one would like to see Sugar evolve
 >> in an useful platform for all people independently of their age.
 >>
 >> If kids are complaining so much about the Sugar Shell means that they
 >> are "seeing" it too much. Most of the important stuff should happen
 >> inside activities, not in the Shell. My reaction to that feedback is
 >> that Sugar should dissolve itself better into the set of installed
 >> activities (by improving performance, for example) and that activities
 >> should address better the kids' interests (so they don't need to
 >> change the shell icons to get some fun).
 >>
 >> > (note the final para from death-god, he's not able to think outside the
 >> > MS
 >> > paradigm at this point - I plan to do some more talking about these
 >> > issues
 >> > next term)
 >> >
 >> > one memory that this triggered in me was mark shuttleworths ubuntu
 >> > manifesto:
 >> >
 >> > http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/06/mark-shuttleworths-ubuntu-manifesto.html
 >> > #13 "pretty" as a feature
 >>
 >> My suspect is that conventional desktops have a big dissonance with
 >> non-office usage, so people spend more time that they would like to in
 >> the "OS". Because of that, the desktop GUI is important for them and
 >> they want it to be pretty. If we reduced the components that the user
 >> needs to interact with, those eliminated components don't need to be
 >> pretty any more. If we reduce the time that the user needs to spend on
 >> the rest of the desktop, the importance of their "beauty" is also
 >> reduced.
 >>
 >> Not saying that Mark is wrong nor that Sugar should be ugly, just that
 >> when we hear that some part of the Sugar shell needs to look nicer or
 >> be more like traditional desktops, we may want to reflect why is the
 >> shell taking so much of the user attention and if this isn't an
 >> opportunity to streamline the experience and take ourselves out of the
 >> way.
 >
 > thanks for comment, Tomeu. I've put it up on the wiki and will attempt to
 > discuss these issues with the students when we go back to school tomorrow.
 > (we will have to get our minds back out of holiday mode first, however)
 > http://xo-whs.wikispaces.com/Sugar+UI
 >
 > one thing I have noticed with students who use linux (only a handful at my
 > school) is that they like the ubuntu rotating cube, they see that as new and
 > "cool"
 >
 > My own thoughts are more in line with what you are saying, that the OS, if
 > we must have one, ought to be just a way to access the activities, that
 > pretty is not important. But I do suspect strongly that to attract many
 > users (who are used to Windows) it is important and that part of the success
 > of ubuntu is that MarkShuttleworth has picked up on that.
 
 Agreed, we don't want to sell an OS, but may be forced into that...
 
 No idea about what we can do there, other than hiring Apple's
 marketing department :p

I like walter's suggestions on this page:
http://en.flossmanuals.net/Sugar/ModifyingSugar
  
tweaking the interface as an option - for both empowerment and skill building

I'll give it a go but fear that most students won't have the patience or carefulness to hack the python code successfully, a few will give it a shot but many will be easily discouraged 
  (trying to think of a way to make it a bit more accessible to more)
  

actually on a closer look walter's modifying sugar tutorial does provide quite a few low level entry points into -
hacking
SVG
python
linux 

that's a lot of pluses