<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas <<a href="mailto:paul@kristianpaul.org">paul@kristianpaul.org</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> Reenvio un correo que merece una lectura , parte del hilo <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2011-November/014482.html" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2011-November/014482.html</a>, generado por (opinion personal) la necesidad de comparar apple con sugar. Saludos Cristian Paul ----- Forwarded message from Alan Kay ----- Hi Carlos I don't have answers to your form of the questions -- and educational situations are always much larger than any kind of technology (even when technology has a lot of symbolic and motivational value). These issues have some parallels with "what if it were a music problem?". We are not going to solve it simply by giving every child a $100 musical instrument plus a book about how to play it. However: we are human beings, we have music in us, and a nice musical instrument can be very motivational, even when we don't strictly need it to get better in music (we can learn how to sing because we have our own instruments right inside of us). We can make many instruments, etc. And we would certainly be silly to try to measure "musical progress" based on the children having instruments for a short period. But we would be smart to find ways to deal with the fact that some teachers and parents will know enough about music to help, and most might not. What would a large scale smart strategy be to take advantage of the new interest in music? (If we wait too long, children and teachers and parents might decide that wonderful instruments like the violin might not be learnable or even musical -- and that would be a shame and a disaster.) Or: those who are less familiar with music might decide that learning scales is the thing to do -- and it can be measured to assess progress! But this is confusing a sub-goal with a goal. The goal is to express ideas and emotions through music. That is the threshold that has to be aimed for and achieved. It is likely that those who understand this threshold will have to do a lot of traveling around to help the classroom teachers with this threshold. They will have to help train teachers and parents. They will have to write about this for the teachers and parents. They will have to make a "musical environment" in which the three main intertwined processes of learning to play are alive and well: (a) private time with someone who knows how to play (b) public time with others who are learning to play (c) lots of practicing in (a), (b) and by oneself. For (a) one or two hours a week makes an enormous difference -- and this is the hardest to get a society to set up. (b) is a kind of payoff, but most schools think wrongly that it is the main process. And when (c) starts working, the whole process will really start working. Back to the "computer instrument". It is more like a musical instrument than it needs to be (for example, it can also be the instruction books -- and not too far in the future, it can also act the part of an "expert helper" in some areas). These have to be looked forward to and made to happen. But for right now, the key is the "musical knowledge" and sense of thresholds in the teachers and parents. When this is lacking, the society has to find ways to have those with the knowledge touch and transfer as much as possible to children, teachers and parents. Best wishes, Alan >________________________________ > From: Carlos Rabassa <<a href="mailto:carnen@mac.com">carnen@mac.com</a>> >To: voluntarios y administradores OLPC para usuarios docentes <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>>; <a href="mailto:argentina@lists.laptop.org">argentina@lists.laptop.org</a>; Lista de correo del equipo Somos-Azúcar <<a href="mailto:somosazucar@lists.sugarlabs.org">somosazucar@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>; olpc bolivia <<a href="mailto:olpc-bolivia@lists.laptop.org">olpc-bolivia@lists.laptop.org</a>>; IAEP SugarLabs <<a href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>; OLPC Puno <<a href="mailto:olpcpuno@gmail.com">olpcpuno@gmail.com</a>> >Cc: David Van Assche <<a href="mailto:dvanassche@gmail.com">dvanassche@gmail.com</a>>; Alan Kay <<a href="mailto:alan.nemo@yahoo.com">alan.nemo@yahoo.com</a>> >Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:45 AM >Subject: Re: [IAEP] Teaching with computers / Enseniando con Computadoras > > >Spanish translation will follow as soon as I have a chance to prepare it > > > > >David, Alan, > > >Thanks. These two short messages, clearly explain the problem about which we worry so much. > > >We couldn´t have asked for more authorized opinions. > > >The full development of free software, until it reaches the stage in which most users can use it without problems, takes lots of time. > > >In my modest opinion, we have in Uruguay a fantastic opportunity that will not last forever. > > >The people and the government are still quite enthusiastic about Plan Ceibal. > > >This enthusiasm needs a constant flow of good news in terms of results, to stay alive and strong. > > >All that has been invested to date, all the good results we have already seen and are seeing every day, are too much to risk losing. > > >So the question is > > >¿Are we willing to take that risk waiting for Sugar or should we propose alternative solutions to the authorities? > > >¿What is more important, free software or the education of the children who are attending school today? > > > > >Carlos Rabassa >Volunteer >Plan Ceibal Support Network >Montevideo, Uruguay > > > > >On Nov 19, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Alan Kay wrote: > >Hi David >> >> >>I think you make a valid point about open source software. The problem is that the end-users in this case have not bought into this dynamic -- and, given the real goals and the small windows of opportunity available, the open source dynamic is not just moot here, but is a real problem. >> >> >>I think what we all have quite a bit of difficulty with is doing *packaging* that is up to the level needed by the end users. This is a separate skill set (and set of talents). >> >> >> >>Just speaking for Viewpoints (but I think this applies to most of us) we are just much better at thinking of "potentially good features" and in implementing these up to some level of usability -- but *we* certainly fall short of what I would call real packaging. I was a champion of Hypercard at Apple and helped get it to be approved as a product ... and then was quite sobered, even shocked, by the amount of work -- hundreds of additional person-years -- that Apple put into turning something I thought was great for users, into something that *was* actually great for users. And it wasn't just the person-hours, but "the check-list" and vetting that was the key. >> >> >>Very best wishes, >> >> >>Alan >> >> >> >>>________________________________ >>> From: David Van Assche <<a href="mailto:dvanassche@gmail.com">dvanassche@gmail.com</a>> >>>To: Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> >>>Cc: voluntarios y administradores OLPC para usuarios docentes <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>>; Carlos Rabassa <<a href="mailto:carnen@mac.com">carnen@mac.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:argentina@lists.laptop.org">argentina@lists.laptop.org</a>; olpc bolivia <<a href="mailto:olpc-bolivia@lists.laptop.org">olpc-bolivia@lists.laptop.org</a>>; Lista de correo del equipo Somos-Azúcar <<a href="mailto:somosazucar@lists.sugarlabs.org">somosazucar@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>; IAEP SugarLabs <<a href="mailto:iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org">iaep@lists.sugarlabs.org</a>>; OLPC Puno <<a href="mailto:olpcpuno@gmail.com">olpcpuno@gmail.com</a>> >>>Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 6:20 AM >>>Subject: Re: [IAEP] Teaching with computers / Enseniando con Computadoras >>> >>> >>>Also, what makes apple great to most people is their hardware not their software, their latest OS both on touchpads and laptops is horribly buggy, and feels more like beta software than even windows 7... >>> >>>Sugar isn't perfect, but its far far less bloated than any other option available, and that makes it comfortable to code for, fun to use, and hopefully easier to teach with. If only there were more marketing, more money, more coders, etc,etc... >>> >>>That's the deal with all open source software though... eventually it seems, if one holds on long enough, all those things do come... look at mozilla, apache, mysql, or suse... either individuals or very big companies come in and help out... why should it be any different with Sugar? >>> >>>David Van Assche > > _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) <a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep</a> ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ Colombia mailing list <a href="mailto:Colombia@lists.sugarlabs.org">Colombia@lists.sugarlabs.org</a> <a href="http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/colombia" target="_blank">http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/colombia</a> </blockquote></div> <div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Gracias Cristian interesante. :) </div>